In this lively and engaging episode, host Cathy Booth catches up with Kent young ringers Oscar, Lottie and Flo, and Flo’s mum, Hannah.
Although young in years, the ringers have a wealth of experience to share, having already notched up numerous quarter peals and having several striking competitions under their belts. Their unique perspective also means they offer the absolute best ringing tips!
Kent Young Ringers at SEECON with carrots!
Cathy finds out how they got into ringing, what they like best about it and asks them to help fill in some of her ringing knowledge gaps.
And thanks to these impressive young ringers, Cathy can now tell her handstroke from her backstroke, the treble from the tenor, and knows the proper term for ‘the fluffy bit’.
Top five takeaways
When you’re learning to ring don’t rush, take your time – getting your technique right will help you in the future and you won’t have to correct any handling mistakes later on.
Always listen to the advice that you are given from experienced ringers. Even if you don’t quite understand something at the time, it might come in handy in the future.
Don’t get stressed if you go wrong when ringing, just keep going and try and get back into the right place. The person ringing next to you might be able to help put you right.
If you’re finding learning a bit difficult in the early days don’t worry or give up – it will get better!
Parents – although ringing might not seem an obvious childhood activity, it brings huge benefits, like increased confidence, teamwork and the ability to get on with people of all ages and backgrounds.
Sponsor: This podcast is sponsored by the Association of Ringing Teachers (ART). To find out more about learning to ring, learning to teach or other resources to support your ringing go to bellringing.org
Podcast team:
Anne Tansley Thomas
Emily Roderick
John Gwynne
Emily Watts
Cathy Booth
Ringing by:
The Cambridge Youths (supplied by David Richards) and for later episodes, The Liliputters Guild (supplied by Simon Edwards).
Introduction to Fun With Bells
[00:00:00] CHARLOTTE: The best thing I've done is ringing in the competitions because it shows what you're capable of doing and I just find the competitions really fun.
Ringing by the Society of Cambridge Youths
[Bells ringing]
Introducing the podcast
[00:00:19] CATHY: Hi, welcome to Fun With Bells, a podcast for bell ringers hosted by me, Cathy Booth.
In February this year, I was contacted by Jen Thomas - the Kent County Association Youth Officer. As a result, we've got two episodes about the Kent Young Ringers. In this first episode, I interview three young ringers and one non-ringing parent. I also briefly catch up with them while they're having lunch at the Ringing World National Youth Contest.
Meet the Young Ringers: Oscar and Lottie
[00:00:50] CATHY: Firstly, I'm talking with Oscar who's 13 and Lottie who's 11. Firstly, asking Oscar when and why he started ringing.
Oscar's Journey into Bell Ringing
[00:00:58] OSCAR: So, I started ringing October 2019. I started ringing because I'm quite involved with the church. I do choir, and my grandma organises a lot of things for the church. I thought it'd be quite nice to start learning bell ringing because I see people going up there to ring the bells. I thought why not have a go at it.
I really enjoyed it my first time.
[00:01:19] CATHY: Lottie, what about you?
Lottie's Bell Ringing Beginnings
[00:01:21] CHARLOTTE: I started ringing in 2017, when I was five. I started ringing because I saw that my dad had the key, and he kept taking my brother up and I really wanted to have a go. So, I had a go on about four boxes and then I really enjoyed it and continued.
[00:01:43] CATHY: So now I want to ask both of you,
The Social Side of Bell Ringing
[00:01:46] CATHY: What's enjoyable about ringing? What do you like about it?
[00:01:50] OSCAR: It's very sociable, I know a lot more people. And also, once you've learned how to ring, you can go to pretty much anywhere where there's bells, and just say, "oh, could I have a ring?" And then you get to meet a lot of new people, make some more friends. And also, it's a very interesting thing to do.
[00:02:06] CATHY: So, you like the social side of it?
[00:02:08] OSCAR: Yeah.
[00:02:09] CATHY: Yes okay. Lottie, what about you?
[00:02:12] CHARLOTTE: I think that talking and meeting new people and ringing different types of bells and getting to know different bells is quite fun.
Challenges in Learning Bell Ringing
[00:02:23] OSCAR: What's been the hardest thing to learn? So far, I've just started learning some new methods. And when you have a method, you can make it a bit more difficult with something called a touch of it. And I learn all those different touches which I'm just starting to find a bit more tricky.
[00:02:39] CATHY: Okay, what's a touch?
[00:02:40] OSCAR: So, when you have a method, which is when all the bells will do the same thing usually, but just in a different order, if you have a touch, such as a bob or a single, some bells will switch places. So, you'll do something in a different order, or you'll make something called a dodge, and it'll just basically change what you're about to do.
[00:03:00] CATHY: Okay, I think I might ask you some more questions about dodges and things like that later as well.
Lottie, what for you has been the hardest thing to learn?
[00:03:09] CHARLOTTE: So the hardest thing that I found to learn is putting the strokes together, which is handstroke and backstroke. Handstroke is where you pull the fluffy part of the rope, called the sally. And backstroke is where you've gone all the way up. You've pulled on the sally, you've got, the rope's gone down and gone back up. And when you're holding the bell, up at the back, that's called backstroke. That's the hardest part that I found.
[00:03:34] CATHY: The hardest part, the backstroke, or putting the- two together, did you say?
[00:03:37] CHARLOTTE: Putting the two together.
Greatest Achievements in Bell Ringing
[00:03:38] CATHY: Oscar, I'm going to ask you. What's been your greatest or latest, achievement as a bell ringer?
[00:03:44] OSCAR: I'd say my greatest achievement was probably learning actually how to ring the bell. So, once you put the two strokes together, it opens, like a gate to so much more. It's a really good feeling because then you start to ring with other people as well.
It's just, it's such a big step in actual bell ringing.
[00:04:05] CATHY: And Lottie?
[00:04:05] CHARLOTTE: My greatest and my latest achievement is ringing a handbell quarter peal with my father. Handbells are the mini little bells, but a quarter peal is 36 to 50 minutes of constant ringing non-stop.
[00:04:21] CATHY: And you've done that recently. Ah, well done. Have you rung a quarter peal Oscar?
[00:04:28] OSCAR: I've only rung a quarter peal on real big bells, in tower bells. I'm not very good at using the hand bells yet.
[00:04:37] CHARLOTTE: I've rung 20 on Big Bells and 1 on handbells.
Tips for New Bell Ringers
[00:04:41] CATHY: Do you have any tips for people who are learning, Oscar?
[00:04:44] OSCAR: I'd say for people who are learning, try not to rush because if you haven't mastered your backstroke or handstroke. It's very hard to put them together. And as you go later on down the line, if you haven't learnt it properly, you'll get people telling you that's not how you're meant to ring. And then you'll have to relearn it, which creates a huge pause. Also, when someone's more experienced than you, and they're telling you something, always listen to them because they normally know what they're talking about.
[00:05:13] CATHY: Good, those are two good tips. Lottie, do you agree with those? Do you have more?
[00:05:18] CHARLOTTE: Uh, I do agree with those tips, and my extra tip is don't just stress about, say you're ringing in rounds, which is however many bells you're on, 1 to however many bells you're on. Don't stress if you go wrong. Just try and get back into the right place. And if you've got someone stood next to you, they will probably help you.
So, don't stress and go with it.
Setting Up a Young Ringers Group
[00:05:42] CATHY: If someone in another part of the country wanted to start a young ringers group like the Kent Young Ringers, what do you think it would be important for them to do to set up a good one?
[00:05:53] CHARLOTTE: I would that you could start putting together a striking competition team and allow anyone in from a certain age to a certain older age in and just let them try and don't hold them back and just go with it.
[00:06:13] OSCAR: I'd say that also you've got to hold regular practices at different towers. And also, when you get groups of people, obviously they'll all be at different levels normally. So just make sure that everyone gets a chance to ring what they need to ring or what they want to ring. It makes it a lot more interesting and fun for people.
Yeah, and I agree with what Lottie said about not holding them back.
Yeah.
Experiences in Striking Competitions
[00:06:37] CATHY: What's your experience of striking competitions?
[00:06:40] CHARLOTTE: So, I've rung maybe four or five striking competitions. One of them being with a Home Tower - Rochester Cathedral and another one being, RWNYC which stands for Ringing World National Youth Contest for any team in the country to join and go to one tower and compete. My team, the Kent Young Ringers, came third in the '23 competition and on July the 6th we have this year's in London, last year's was in York.
So, you're looking forward to that then.
Yeah.
[00:07:20] CATHY: Oscar, what about you? What is your experience of striking competitions?
[00:07:23] OSCAR: I haven't done very many striking competitions yet. I've done a couple, probably two or three. And I really enjoy them because you get a whole day out and you go to different places and just get to know everyone a bit better. And obviously in July, as Lottie said, there is the Ringing World competition coming up.
And it's quite good because in the team that you've got a captain. And Jen has named me as the reserve captain, which is quite nice. Yeah,
[00:07:51] CATHY: Oh, very good.
[00:07:52] OSCAR: But I'm hoping the Captain's not ill.
Enjoying Bell Ringing Competitions
[00:07:55] CATHY: What do you like about ringing in competitions?
[00:07:59] CHARLOTTE: We get to compete get rewarded, and we also, which is the main part, we get to know each other, as Oscar said, and ring at different towers and experience those bells.
[00:08:08] OSCAR: I'd say ringing competitions, it's quite nice because although you've been practicing for a long time, or maybe not a long time, but you have practiced for it before, and it's just sometimes when you've got that feeling, you ring a bit better. Because you can have that feeling that if you do ring really well, you get a reward, such as like a trophy, or like Lottie said, rewarded by the people around you.
Yeah, it just gives you a drive to ring better.
Explaining Bell Ringing Terms: Places
[00:08:35] CATHY: Now I wanted to get on to the section where I'm going to ask you about these bell ringing terms that I've heard of. Okay, so we'll take it in turns, but if anybody has anything to add to what the other person said, or wants to explain it in a different way, then we could do that as well.
We'll start with Lottie. What are places?
[00:08:52] CHARLOTTE: Places are where you, you're doing three, four places, which is when you're making places in the third and fourth. Now the places part is where you do two notes, as in the two dongs in that place, so Say you're doing 3 places, you go 3rd, 3rd, and then you move to 4th, and do 4th, 4th, and you keep doing that until the conductor, who's the person who's telling you what to do, says that's all, which means stop what you're doing and stay where you are.
[00:09:21] CATHY: Okay. Oscar, can you have a go at explaining?
[00:09:24] OSCAR: what I'd say is when you're ringing, every bell has its own place. So, if you're ringing one, two, three, four, five, the bell one is in first place, two is in second place, three is in fourth place, etc. When someone says, three, four, go places, third's bell will do two dongs in fourth's place, then after those two dongs you go into third's place, dong, dong, and it'll keep doing that until this is all, and the four will do the same thing, but instead of going fourth's place for two blows, it'll go in third's place for two blows.
So, what the bells are actually doing, they're just swapping round for two dongs.
[00:10:02] CATHY: Okay, thank you very much.
Understanding the Treble Bell
[00:10:04] CATHY: The treble. I know that everybody starts with, because I can hear it, they say treble's going, she's gone.
[00:10:10] OSCAR: Yeah
[00:10:11] CATHY: Yes, and I know that's the lightest bell, but is there anything else you can tell me about the treble bell? Is it always the lightest bell?
[00:10:19] CHARLOTTE: Yeah, it will never be the heaviest bell, because the heaviest bell is called the tenor, which is the heaviest bell, and the lightest bell's the treble, because
[00:10:29] OSCAR: It's the highest pitch.
[00:10:30] CATHY: So, is that, do I actually know about the treble then? It sounds like I know that.
[00:10:34] CHARLOTTE: Yeah.
[00:10:35] CATHY: Great, okay. I don't know the next one.
What is a Cover Bell?
[00:10:37] CATHY: Cover bell. What's a cover bell?
[00:10:40] OSCAR: When you're ringing anything, a method, just some rounds, a cover bell is the bell that's always going last. So, if you're ringing on eight bells, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven may be doing something completely different. But the job of the 8 bell is to always just say last. And being last, because on 8 bells it'll be in 8th place. Or 12 bells, 12th place.
[00:11:06] CATHY: Doubles, minor, triples. What are those?
[00:11:09] CHARLOTTE: Minor, Triples, Doubles, Major. They classify amount of bells you're ringing on. Minimus is the smallest, which is four bells. Doubles is five, Minor is six, Triples is seven, Major is eight,
Caters is nine, Royal is ten Cinques is eleven, and Maximus is twelve.
Then from there on they stop giving them special names and just say thirteen and fourteen and so on.
[00:11:41] OSCAR: If you're ringing on three singles. So, I'm pretty sure
that's the smallest, up before minimus.
Dodges and Bobs Explained
[00:11:48] CATHY: Now you mentioned dodges earlier, Oscar, what is a dodge?
[00:11:52] OSCAR: Um, a dodge is very similar to, places. Except in places, you'll go two dongs in fourths and two in thirds. With dodging, you only do one dong. If you're going three, four, go dodging. The thirds will do a dong in fourths, a dong in thirds, a dong in fourths, a dong in thirds. And the same for the four, but just a dong in thirds first.
And they'll keep going until the conductor says, this is it all.
[00:12:22] CATHY: Bobs, are they different again?
[00:12:26] OSCAR: It involves two or more bells that will swap over. In a method, such as, plain bob doubles, when a bob is called, or if in a touch, a bob will be called, and that will affect all the working bells, which are all the bells that are doing some interesting things in the method. Yeah, and then, I'm not quite sure what it is, so I'll let Lottie explain a bit more on that.
[00:12:52] CHARLOTTE: A bob is where two bells, normally the one and a even placed bell, so second, fourth or sixth in mine, will just stay where they are. And the other pairs will swap. Say a bob is called and it's at at the end of the method, instead of going 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 in minor, it'll be, probably 1, 3, 2, 4, 6, 5. Because then they all change what they're doing and continue as though they were a different bell.
Hunting in Bell Ringing
[00:13:35] CATHY: Hunting Oscar.
[00:13:36] OSCAR: Yeah, hunting's a bit easier than explaining bobs. As I said earlier, all the bells, however many you're on, they're all in a certain place. So, 1 , 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. 1 is in 1st place because it's the first bell. 2nd is in 2nd's place because it's the 2nd bell, etc. When bells go hunting, that means that if they're an even bell, they'll move down a place, closer to the 1st place bell.
So, if it's the four, it'll go thirds place, seconds place, then first place, first place, and then seconds, thirds, fourths, fifths, fifths. So, when you're hunting, you're always going first place twice, and however, if it's on seven bells, you go seventh twice, on nine bells, nine twice, on ten, ten twice. And it's the same on odd bells except you go up towards the back first.
[00:14:34] CATHY: Have you got anything to add?
[00:14:35] CHARLOTTE: Not really, because Oscar really covered most of it. All of it.
[00:14:40] CATHY: Okay. Lovely. And now my last question to each of you.
Best Moments with Kent Young Ringers
[00:14:44] CATHY: What's the best thing that you've done with the Kent Young Ringers? Oscar, would you like to answer that one?
[00:14:49] OSCAR: I'd say one of the best things about the Kent Young Ringers, is probably, I really like the car journeys, because they're quite interesting sometimes. I'd say it's a really good place, because you get to have a good joke about in the car. it's just really fun, cause you get to go to different towers, ring some different bells. And it's in between going to those towers, you get to have this little break where you can joke about it and that. Yeah, it's really nice and just quite friendly.
[00:15:17] CATHY: And Lottie, what's the best thing that you've done with the Kent Young Ringers?
[00:15:21] CHARLOTTE: The best thing I've done is ringing in the competitions because it shows what you're capable of doing and it proves how good your team is from that section of ringers it shows your team. And I just find the competitions really fun.
Catching Up at the Ringing World National Youth Contest
[00:15:45] CATHY: Thanks to Oscar and Lottie, who I also caught up at the Ringing World National Youth Contest as they were having their lunch at 120 Fenchurch Street in the garden there.
And the first thing is Lottie is going to tell me about what she's enjoyed about the day so far.
[00:16:00] LOTTIE: So today I've enjoyed all the different ringing we've been doing and walking around and having fun with other people and at the tower we had just before lunch, we rung Plain Hunt on 7.
[00:16:18] CATHY: Oscar told me a little bit more about their day.
[00:16:21] OSCAR: So today we met up at St. Mary le Bow. We had breakfast there, a bit of a team talk. And then whilst we were waiting to ring at the 12-bell tower, St Mary le Bow, we had to go on a mini ring and had a look at all the stalls there. Then we had a go at the St. Mary le Bow, which was very nice actually. We all 12 bells and call changes. I managed to get ring round to the 10, which is nice. And then after that we walked over to St. Giles Cripplegate. And that is a 12-bell tower, but we only got to ring 8 unfortunately. Basically, it was very good.
They're very different bells to the bells we've been usually ringing on. But we practised our test piece there, and hopefully it should go well. So, we're just having our lunch now at the garden. And once we've had this we're actually going to go and do our test piece. So hopefully that will go well.
Then we've got a few more towers to go to, then we get the results in St Paul's.
Kent Young Ringers test piece of ringing at RWNYC 2024
[00:17:10] CATHY: Now a short excerpt from the test piece,
Interview with Flo
[00:17:35] CATHY: Flo who is 11, is one of the Kent Young Ringers, and we might have a quick word with Hannah, Flo's mum as well. But first, Flo, how long have you been learning to ring?
[00:17:45] FLO: Two years in August.
[00:17:47] CATHY: Right. Okay. And do you have any family that are ringers?
[00:17:51] FLO: No.
[00:17:53] CATHY: How did you start ringing?
[00:17:56] FLO: I was in class and then my teacher said, "Raise your hand if you want to start bell ringing, as other people in the year above had started." And then I put my hand up and then I got chosen to do it.
[00:18:12] CATHY: And what made you think of doing it?
[00:18:14] FLO: It's a nice thing to try doing, and it's just nice to learn something new.
[00:18:20] CATHY: What do you enjoy about ringing?
[00:18:23] FLO: I enjoy that loads of people can hear you and they can enjoy your ringing.
[00:18:31] CATHY: And what's been the hardest thing to learn?
[00:18:35] FLO: Plain hunt.
[00:18:36] CATHY: Ah, right. Plain hunt.
Flo's Greatest Achievements and Tips
[00:18:39] CATHY: What's been your greatest or latest achievement as a bell ringer?
[00:18:44] FLO: Quarter peal.
[00:18:46] CATHY: You've done a quarter peal. And how long ago was that?
[00:18:50] FLO: Probably like three months ago.
[00:18:52] CATHY: Do you have any tips for people who are learning to ring?
[00:18:57] FLO: Don't give up, it gets better and better as you get going, and it's a nice thing to learn, and also, you gain new friendships, and you can learn something new.
[00:19:12] CATHY: Have you been in a striking competition?
[00:19:16] FLO: Yes.
[00:19:18] CATHY: And what did you think of that?
[00:19:20] FLO: It was fun, and nice to do.
[00:19:23] CATHY: What do you like about the Kent Young Ringers?
[00:19:27] FLO: Oh, well, I've been ringing in lots of competitions, and I've rung for, like, the Queen's Death, her Jubilee, D Day, and Coronation.
Explaining More Bell Ringing Terms
[00:19:40] CATHY: Now, I was going to ask you some of the bell ringing terms that I've heard. Do you remember I said that I'm not a bell ringer and there were some terms that I'd heard of, but I wasn't quite sure what they were and see if you could tell me. The first one is, the Sally. What's, what's the Sally?
[00:19:56] FLO: It's like, on the ropes, it's like the fluffy bit. The sally's the fluffy bit, where you hold the rope.
[00:20:03] CATHY: And what, what are rounds?
[00:20:11] FLO: It's like, imagine a circle, and then you're playing, like, the treble, the two, then the three, then the four, then the five, and then so on until you get to the tenor and then Yeah. And then you keep on going until someone says, stand.
[00:20:30] CATHY: And what's the tenor?
[00:20:34] FLO: It's the last bell. And it varies in how many bells you have in a tower.
[00:20:41] CATHY: And I've also heard of call changes. What are call changes?
[00:20:47] FLO: So, it's when two bells swap places. So, then the third bell could be ring in second place and the second bell would ring in third's place.
[00:20:59] CATHY: What do they say when they're trying to get you to do that?
[00:21:03] FLO: If it's with the two and the three, then you would say two to three.
[00:21:08] CATHY: And what do bell ringers say at the beginning and end of ringing?
[00:21:11] FLO: The person starting would say, "look to, trebles going, she's gone." And then, at the end, you would say "stand", and that means that you have to stop ringing and stand the bell at handstroke or backstroke.
[00:21:28] CATHY: Maybe you could explain those to me.
[00:21:30] FLO: Handstroke is when you can like see the sally, and then backstroke. Backstroke is when you can only see the end of the rope,
[00:21:41] CATHY: And what's the best thing you've done with the Kent Young Ringers? What was the thing that you liked the most?
[00:21:47] FLO: Ringing for D-Day.
[00:21:50] CATHY: D-Day. What was good about that?
[00:21:52] FLO: It's like you are ringing for the people who died in the war.
[00:22:01] CATHY: To remember them.
[00:22:03] FLO: Yeah.
[00:22:04] CATHY: To remember them. Yes.
Parental Perspective on Bell Ringing
[00:22:06] CATHY: I'm just going to ask your mum a couple of questions now. Hannah, what did you think of Flo taking up bell ringing?
[00:22:15] HANNAH: I initially thought, I was surprised that she wanted to do it, but she'd just gone to a new school and was sort of embracing what was going on at the school, so we just said, "Yeah, go for it."
[00:22:31] CATHY: How do you find Flo with her bell ringing?
[00:22:35] HANNAH: I think it's been amazing for her. She really lacked confidence, and you would never have found Flo speaking to older people, be it teenagers or adults. It's really given her the confidence to do that because when she did her quarter peal, she was ringing with all adults and she must have been the youngest by sort of 20 years, if not more, and she would never have had the confidence to do that, so it's really increased her confidence massively.
[00:23:05] CATHY: And was there anything else that you wanted to say, Hannah?
[00:23:09] HANNAH: Whilst bell ringing isn't the most obvious choice for children, I think there are so many things to be gained from it it allows them to almost put back into the area where they live.
That's the thing that Flo enjoys the most is knowing that people in the school area or in the village where we live, they can hear her doing that and I think that's just such a lovely thing to do. Whilst I think people are surprised that they have such young ringers. I just think it's an excellent experience.
It's given her so many things to be able to talk about. She's got involved in so many things that she perhaps wouldn't have been involved with if she hadn't been doing bell ringing.
Conclusion and Future Episodes
[00:23:49] CATHY: Thank you to Flo, her mum Hannah, Oscar, and Lottie for their interviews in this episode. In a future episode, we'll be hearing from Jen Thomas, Neil Jones, and Steph Runting about what's involved in organizing a group like this.
However, that will be after next month's episode, which is about the oldest Guild who are celebrating their 150th anniversary this year.
If you've enjoyed this episode, then please share it.
This podcast was put together by a team. Special thanks go to Ann Tansley-Thomas, Emily Roderick, John Gwynne, Emily Watts, the Society of Cambridge Youth's for the ringing at the beginning of the show. And for the video at the end of the show of the ringing by the Lilliputter's Guild YouTuber, Simon Edwards.
Thank you.
[Bells ringing call changes]